It did not take long for my blog posting on the doctrine of sovereign choice or as it is more commonly called the doctrine of pre-destination to elicit the question "What about free will?". There are multiple scriptures and whole passages within the bible that speak to the subject of the free will of man. However, I believe that it must be stated at the front of this blog that the answer to the question,"What about free will?", needs to be addressed directly and very emphatically. MAN DOES NOT HAVE FREE WILL! I was convinced of this after reading a book by R.C. Sproul several years ago,one of the most famous and well respected theologians in the modern Evangelical church. The book was titled "Willing to Believe". I read that book shortly after I had read another book by R.C.Sproul titled "Faith Alone". At the time I read those books I was a member of a Word of Faith/Prosperity gospel church. My views on the process of salvation were poorly grounded in teachings by non-seminary educated preachers. My understanding at that time, was that for a person to be saved or to be "born again", all was needed was a passioned presentation of the gospel by a witness using the Roman Road set of scriptures. Although those kind of Gospel presentations actually work, most of us do not know the why and the how of how it actually works. I did not know at the time that there was any real theological debate that was on-going among theologians over the process of salvation and the dynamics of all that the process actually entails. After my first reading of both books,my paradigm for understanding the salvation process was obliterated and forever changed. Dr. Sproul eloquently and comprehensively presented the different views of the salvation process, listing their strengths, and ultimately disproving all but the historical Reformed understanding of the salvation process.
Dr. Sproul pointed out that the main issue about the free will of man in choosing God can be reduced to this argument. Is man able to cooperate with God using his own determinate will in his own conversion or is man totally depraved, a slave to rebellion, blind to the presentation of the Gospel, and incapable of comprehending the words of Jesus Christ without initially being regenerated? The bible teaches that man is spiritually dead. And logically if you are spiritually dead you cannot communicate with the Living and Eternal God. The famous passage in John chapter 3:1-21 details the encounter between Nicodemus and Jesus and is the best starting point to discuss biblically man's participation in his own salvation. Every Christian is familiar with this passage, and a good many can even quote it, but the exposition of this passage is usually straight forward by most preachers and is not thoroughly unpacked in a complete and comprehensive way. In verse 8, Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, states: The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.(ESV) I must point out that just as the wind blows where it wishes,(another word for a determinate will), the wind's "will" is compared to the will of the capital S Spirit, which is referring to God the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit brings new life where He wishes. Simply stated God chooses who is born again. You cannot even approach God with out Him first choosing you and drawing you (John 6:65). Jesus states emphatically in verse 3: Truly, truly,I say to you,unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (ESV). To describe the vista and the beauty of the Rocky Mountain National Park to someone who was born blind is impossible. They have no frame of reference of vision, or of seeing at all to base their interpretation on. In the same way, without out God acting in a monergistic way to "open and heal our spiritual blindness", there is no frame of reference for a spiritually dead man to choose Him. So, to conclude my part of the argument for man's will being free in the choosing of God, dead men do not choose. Only men who have already been regenerated by God will believe.
See Romans chapter 9, Ephesians chapter 1,John chapter 3, John chapter 6, Romans chapter 3, Romans chapter 5, the calling of Abraham in Genesis chapter 12, an idolater from the land of Ur, the story of King David's anointing by Samuel to be King, David was the 8th son of Jesse, and he was a sheepherder, read the story of Jacob and Esau in Genesis, the calling of the disciples of Jesus, the conversion of Paul on the Damascus road, Acts chapter 13, and verse 48 specifically as some beginning readings to meditate and understand God's sovereignty in choosing who serves Him. Also, there is an excellent link at http://monergism.com/ that has many articles on classical Reformed theology. Dr. Russell Moore's paper at predestined-to-what-why-the-doctrine-of-election-is-so-hard-to-believe at Moore to the Point web page. Dr. Moore is an associate Pastor at Highview Baptist Church in Louisville and an academic Dean at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. See all the sermons on Romans chapter 9 by John Piper at http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/.
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http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A331_What-Is-the-Doctrine-of-Election?q=election
ReplyDeletehttp://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A132_Considering-Election-Not-Politics?q=election
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Questions/QA190_Is-the-Doctrine-of-Election-Unfair?q=election
http://www.gty.org/Shop/Audio+Lessons/90-273_The-Doctrine-of-Election-Part-1
http://www.gty.org/Shop/Audio+Lessons/90-274_The-Doctrine-of-Election-Part-2
http://www.gty.org/Shop/Audio+Lessons/90-275_The-Doctrine-of-Election-Part-3
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/grace-alone-sproul/
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/regarding-depravity/http://www.truthforlife.org/resources/message/his-eternal-election/
http://www.truthforlife.org/resources/message/how-can-i-be-saved/
http://theresurgence.com/john_piper_2000_are_there_two_wills_in_god
http://theresurgence.com/evangelism_driscoll
http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/audio/2003/03/02/election-romans-9/
With all due respect and I don't want to sound flippant but I have had this discussion before with people and I still don't get it. What does one gain in believing in a pre-determined salvation? What extra understanding does one obtain? In other words, who cares if the Lord already knows who will be be saved or not? We don't know who will and who will not be saved, so what is the point of looking at God's grace in this way? KB
ReplyDeleteKB, I will respond in a longer post to your question in the near future. I think that the best reason I can give right away, is that apparently the Lord wanted us to know about His sovereignty, since there is so much of scripture that speaks to it in all portions of the Bible. How can we have faith in His character, His faithfulness, and the extent He was willing to go to purchase and call out a people to His name, if we do not understand the full spectrum of His divine attributes. In 2 Timothy 3:16 it states: All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.(ESV) Again, scripture is repleat with references to God's sovereignty and that includes the sovereignty He rightly commands in choosing and saving those who will be His own. I take comfort, that the infinite God, throughout eternity past saw me, planned for me, chose me in and through His Son Jesus Christ, and saved me, in spite of the absolute ugliness and fallenous of my soul. Without Him acting monergistically in me, or in anyone, there would be no one who would repent and accept His Son as Savior.
ReplyDeleteIf I am following you correctly you are suggesting that man has no free will to choose salvation. Reformed Calvinism right? My issue with that is not that it is hard to believe. If the truth stings, so be it. The issue is, that it contradicts God's very own, clearly stated, characters.
ReplyDelete"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
-IIPeter 3:9
If he was longsuffering toward us it sounds like he chooses all of us. And if he wishes all to receive eternal salvation, and it is he who chooses and not us, then certainly he would save all. Would he not? If he loves all equally, "For there is no respect of persons with God," Romans 2:11, and desires all to receive salvation. Would he not save all?
Also, your comments about spiritual death stem from a misunderstanding of death. The word dead doesn't mean dead as in unable to act, exist, etc. Death means separation. And thus as sinners we are separated from God. We are spiritually dead. In this case, God is able to speak to the dead by coming to the place of the dead and showing them life.
And again, it was given to us as a choice. Choose him or deny him. Otherwise we are mindless robots that cannot love God and he then would clearly not love us.
In addition, if we were chosen out of few and forced to make a decision we should never have known that we were forced. If God created robots why tell them that they didn't have choice? That robs the meaning of life and the illusion of choice that humanity would have. And certainly that would lessen the glory we could bring him.
Predestination from the Calvinistic point of view doesn't fit with God's character. If he is loving and all powerful and if he was choosing who would live and who would die, he would choose all. Plain and simple.
Am I missing something or misinterpreting you? lol I'd love to discuss this.
-Nathan
Nathan R.,
ReplyDeleteI gladly chose to publish your comments. They are well thought out, and in fact many of the statements you have made have been the very traditional battle lines that have been drawn from the very earliest days of the Reformation. Based on what you said in your comments, you are very well read, have studied scripture diligently, and you are coming to different conclusions than the Calvinist or Reformed understanding of theology. Your views, if I am correct, would be considered semi-pelagian. The first and foremost consideration when discussing theology, is that hopefully we both agree in the majors of doctrine. I believe those majors to be the nature and identity of Jesus Christ (John 1:1-5, Col. 1:15-20, the entire first chapter of Hebrews, and a potential for a much longer list of scriptures decribing Jesus as God, with God,throughout eternity past and throughout eternity futre), the fact that we are fallen (Genesis chapter 3, Romans 3:9-31), the fact of our need for a perfect unblemished substitutionary Savior (2 Cor. 5:21, John 3:13-21, Galations 2:15-21,Isaiah 52:13-Isaiah 53:12), that Jesus rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:3-8, see also the accounts of His ressurection in the Gospels), and that He is forever King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16). There are other major doctrines and I am sure we probably agree on some or most all of them. Discussing doctrine with fellow believers should always be done in submission to the knowledge that we are both calling on the same Lord of Glory to save us. Of course, the main issue (the nature of man's will and the extent of man's fallenous before regeneration) that divides us here is very, very important, and should be wrestled with diligently by both sides of the discussion. In no way, should the discussion deteriorate into something less than exalting and honoring of our Lord.
So with all that said, I am quite sure we will have many more discussions in this blog on the finer points of total depravity, God's sovereign grace, and man's free will.
I am quite sure that I am very close to the classic understanding of Reformation theology on man's fallenous, God's sovereignty, and how it affects our ability to know and approach God. Reformation theology does teach that spiritual death is complete. A mind that is dead to God can not reason with God. I must emphasize that Jesus did not choose to use the words "You must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven" by accident. Reformation theology does teach that without initial irresistable grace, man cannot know or comprehend God in the least way that can help him to attain relationship with God. Just as a corpse, floating in the water cannot reach out its hand to help the person in the boat pull itself out of the water, a spiritually dead person cannot, in its dead state, reach out to God, and ask for or want help. Plainly, man's fall was complete. It is impossible for the natural mind to comprehend the things of God. Also, I choose to think of our relationship with God when we have been made alive, and adopted into His family, as more special than any human words are capable of understanding. Now that I have been set free from death, forever forgiven for my sin, and filled with His Holy Spirit, I am now set free to worship Him in a manner that is glorifying to God, volitional, and passionate. In my natural state of spiritual death, I would have never desired to serve Him, I would never have repented of my love for self and sin, and in fact as C.S. Lewis states never been happy in God's heaven.
These are just the beginning statements of what I am sure will become a much longer discussion that will strengthen us both in our love of Jesus.
Wow, I am so sorry about not replying to this comment! I get so many emails and I'd saved this one to come back to. It eventually got buried. I'm going to respond here unless you want me to elsewhere LOL
ReplyDelete"Semi-pelagian"
I'm actually not quite sure what you would call it. I'll just state my view and you can label it whatever it's labeled LOL
I believe that man is born with the inclination toward sin based on our sin nature inherited through Adam. This does not mean that we are born sinful. We are born pure. But we have an inclination to sin. Therefore, all men fall into sin.
On his own, man cannot be saved. He cannot come into right standing with God because of his sin. All men are doomed to die because our sin is so great. God had to step down into our world and destroy our sin and empower us to overcome sin. He makes this offer of forgiveness and reconciliation to all, or at least available. And we have a meaningful choice to accept or refute his offer.
I agree with all those terms and doctrines :) lol
"Without initial irresistable grace, man cannot know or comprehend God in the least way that can help him to attain relationship with God."
If I understand you correct I think I agree. Had God not intervened through the Law and Christ we wouldn't have known him.
"Just as a corpse, floating in the water cannot reach out its hand to help the person in the boat pull itself out of the water, a spiritually dead person cannot, in its dead state, reach out to God, and ask for or want help."
Assuming the corpse doesn't know its dead. If the corpse knew it was dead, which would require intervention on the part of the sailor, then it would desire help. God told us we were dead, revealed its horror in its completeness, and then offered an escape.
"Now that I have been set free from death, forever forgiven for my sin, and filled with His Holy Spirit, I am now set free to worship Him in a manner that is glorifying to God, volitional, and passionate."
Yup :)
"In my natural state of spiritual death, I would have never desired to serve Him, I would never have repented of my love for self and sin, and in fact as C.S. Lewis states never been happy in God's heaven."
The phrasing of this might be a bit weird. but looking at it it begs the question. Did you not, in your natural state of spiritual death, make a decision to repent of your selfishness and sin? Did you not desire to serve him?
God had to first reveal to humanity that it was dead. Once he revealed that, I seem to think we've all longed to be made alive. Once we realized we're dead we want to be made alive. That realization, yes, requires God's intervention. But that does not affect whether or not the decision to accept God's salvation after the fact is real or not.
So, I think I agree with pretty much all of what you said right here. lol Again, so sorry for waiting a few months to respond :P